Recently, the full text of a conversation between Liu Yadong, dean of the School of Journalism and Communication at Nankai University and former editor-in-chief of Science and Technology Daily, and Ren Zhengfei, founder of Huawei, in a coffee shop in Shenzhen on July 7 this year was exposed.
Ren Zhengfei’s core views in the interview are as follows:
1. In the face of US sanctions and suppression, Huawei will become increasingly difficult, but Huawei will also become increasingly prosperous.
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2. In the long run, the development of the country still needs to solve the education problem. To solve education problems, we must first overcome network barriers.
3. To improve education, first, it must be differentiated; second, the country must use good schools as a platform and allow it to become a website to bring up the west.
4. We still have to learn from the advanced culture of the United States. We have never said “down with the United States.”
5. Our country must value those who cannot directly create value. People who cannot directly create value must also be allowed to live a decent life.
6. Talent training should implement a dual-track system. Everyone has the ability to learn on their own, but they also need to be well educated.
7. Don’t overemphasize the “starting line”, don’t homogenize, don’t let everyone stop learning English because I can’t learn English well.
The following is the full text of the conversation:
Liu Yadong: First, let’s talk about Huawei’s basic research. Huawei has thousands of scientists and experts… Whether they are engaged in basic research or cutting-edge exploration, is their research work driven by interest or demand?
Ren Zhengfei: Does Dean Liu know about the Rafal nozzle? It is an important phenomenon in aerodynamics. The rocket engine is a Rafal nozzle. The compressible fluid is squeezed by the Rafal nozzle. The greater the expansion of the ejected gas, the faster the speed.
We also use this principle in our research and development. Once the boundary is determined, as long as employees are willing to play a role within this boundary, their potential can be unleashed, and energy will erupt under certain circumstances. The boundaries of the scientific scope are relatively wide, and a R&D team of more than 100,000 people can always find opportunities for it to play a role. At this time, interests have room to drive themselves at the boundaries.
After the theory is determined and entering the product stage, you can no longer do somersaults like Sun Wukong. Therefore, on the product side, there must be orderly team building. The goal of this team building is to quickly lead the world. This enters the expansion stage of Rafal Nozzle. Therefore, we have boundaries and are not entirely driven by interests, but interests will be encouraged and allowed.
In fact, universities also have boundaries, but their boundaries are wider. When we cooperate with universities, they can study far-reaching things, publish papers on their own, win awards, and have the opportunity to be promoted to professors and academicians. This has nothing to do with us and does not need to bear our names. We may also have a team to help him, and this team does not need to be signed. why? Fame and fortune, you can only want the same. The profits have been given to us, so why do we have to compete with teachers for reputation? Therefore, young professors in universities are very willing to cooperate with us.
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We used to mainly cooperate with universities in Western countries. Considering that they are constantly shrinking the scope of cooperation, we have strengthened our cooperation with Chinese universities.
It is probably such a structure, that is, the “trumpet” absorbs cosmic energy. After theoretical research, mature research results and personnel quickly expanded on the product side through the Rafal nozzle, and quickly completed world-leading products. First, people are transformed through this trumpet. When the Rafal nozzle sprays, the person’s character and characteristics are changed; second, outstanding talents have a stage to display their talents. This process is a flipping and jumping process, which helps outstanding talents stand out.
Liu Yadong: Does Huawei have any requirements for the person at the top of the Rafal nozzle?
Ren Zhengfei: For the more than 23 billion yuan invested previously, including cooperation with universities and basic research, we never considered returns. We only have assessment requirements for the following product lines.
You can see the news tonight (July 7). Our Pangu model was released. This is a large model with hundreds of billions of parameters. Our current AI cluster supports 16,000 boards, and a super-node cluster in the future can manage hundreds of thousands of boards. An AI cluster supercomputing system manages so many boards, supports ultra-high-speed interconnection, ultra-efficient liquid cooling, instantaneous burst power supply, and achieves high system availability. We are not inferior to the United States in these.
If our products are not advanced enough, they will not be sold. I can’t sell it at a high price, and I can’t support the team.
Liu Yadong: Huawei has developed many software, including management software ERP, design software EDA, Hongmeng and Euler operating systems, etc. Software development is a dynamic process that requires iterative updates and an industrial ecosystem. This industrial ecosystem cannot be established by Huawei alone and requires many companies to work together. What role does Huawei play in this?
Ren Zhengfei: Actually, we develop tool software because we need to use this software to design products. For example, if our goal is to build a car, we must have a screwdriver and a wrench. But without screwdrivers and wrenches, cars wouldn’t be built. “Screwdriver” and “wrench” are not our purpose. Therefore, we brought various domestic manufacturers to make “screwdrivers” and “wrenches”. Our people will slowly withdraw, and these tools and software belong to them. But their things will grow on our clouds, which is cloudification. In this way, the domestic electronics industry can design independently. We have released more than 20 software tools to the public, and we have used many of them internally. Once the shortcomings are no longer visible, these tools and software will be made available to the public. At that time, the company that originally developed with us took over. There are also 58 tool software under verification.
Hongmeng and Euler have commercial goals, which are to drag our cloud forward and strengthen the cloud platform base. The cloud platform provides a wealth of components and services, which we call “black land”. If we develop it further, it will be SaaS, which is a social thing. We are still building a computing power base platform, and we are also building a computing power base platform for artificial intelligence.
Liu Yadong: Good products come from use, and this is especially true for software. The cultivation of software industry ecology is a long-term process. Does this mean that Huawei, as a leading company, needs to make huge investments?
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Ren Zhengfei: Although Euler and Hongmeng (code) have been donated, we still invest tens of thousands of people and billions of dollars in this matter every year. We also unite many domestic companies to do ERP. They can take everything away and grow it on our cloud. After it is opened up, any company with the ability can do it. Isn’t growing on the cloud an ecosystem?
Liu Yadong: How is the ecological construction of Hongmeng OS going now?
Ren Zhengfei: There are now more than 30 operating systems in China based on Hongmeng open source, covering industry terminals, mobile phones, tablets, and home terminals. In total, there are approximately 600 million users, ranking third in the world. Hongmeng has just been upgraded to 4.0. After the upgrade, the outside world will also follow suit. There is an open source community out there, and Huawei is not doing it alone. We are doing the base and the core. We are doing “black soil”, and the “corn”, “soybeans” and “sorghum” on it are all grown by our partners.
Liu Yadong: In the face of US sanctions and suppression, Huawei has achieved domestic substitution of many technologies and products. Facing an increasingly severe external environment, what direction will Huawei choose for development?
Ren Zhengfei: Huawei will become more and more difficult, but Huawei will also become more and more prosperous.
If China establishes its own standard system in the future, this standard system will definitely be better than that of the United States. The American standards were established in the 1970s, more than 50 years ago. Their clothes were mended again and again, and there were patches everywhere. We have made new clothes in recent years, why do we still make them according to its standards? We directly make standards better than those in the United States. In addition to being used in China, it is used all over the world.
Liu Yadong: Education is the foundation of a nation and the most important support for us to catch up and surpass the world’s advanced level in the fields of science and technology. In your opinion, how can we improve China’s education industry as soon as possible?
Ren Zhengfei: Why has the West been ahead of us in the past few hundred years? The West invented trains and ships, and they traveled fast. We drove carriages with wooden wheels and no bearings, so we were three to five hundred years behind the West. Now, we are already ahead of the West in some areas of informatization. We are sitting on the “high-speed train”, if they are still sitting on the “carriage”, they will fall behind. The progress of the past and the progress of tomorrow are all in comparison with speed.
In the long run, the development of the country still needs to solve the education problem. To solve education problems, we must first overcome network barriers. Can the national telecommunications network further benefit from high-speed rail? Why is the high-speed rail losing money? Because the fare is set too low. Our high-speed rail does not make money, but it has great social benefits. The high-speed rail embodies serving the people, and serving the people is not for the RMB. The result of not increasing prices is better social benefits. It can be said that high-speed rail has revived China’s glory!
China’s informatization still needs to be accelerated. For example, can China further improve the conditions for running primary and secondary schools? Use the High School Affiliated to Renmin University, the High School Affiliated to Tsinghua University, the good middle schools in Shanghai… as a platform, use all the good schools in China as a platform, and open the courses online. Can China’s Internet be used free of charge by schools in border areas? A country of the people for the people. For example, schools in the areas west of the Hu Huanyong Line will be charged by the state for telecommunications networks and the state will provide subsidies; the courses of good middle schools in Beijing and Shanghai will be opened up, so that middle schools in Yunnan, Tibet, and Xinjiang can take classes from Beijing, and middle schools in Guizhou can take classes from Shanghai. class, then our nation will be revitalized in thirty to fifty years.
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When the people are well, the country will be well. By improving the quality of education in the western region, some social problems will be solved. Education is a big problem in minority areas. If one generation is educated well, they will then educate the next generation. After a few generations, many problems will be solved.
If our country makes good middle school education a platform, makes it open and subsidizes it from the state, then students in the western region can get a better education. The flowers of the motherland are your children! What do your parents do to make money? Parents make money to support their children. As the west develops and the economy prospers, the entire country will progress.
Liu Yadong: Mr. Ren has emphasized the importance of education on many occasions, and I strongly agree. It can be said that the importance of education cannot be overemphasized. As far as education itself is concerned, what needs to be improved most in China?
Ren Zhengfei: You compete with the West. What are you competing for? It’s impossible to rely on resources. We just need to make money back through cultural revitalization. Why is education important? Geniuses are born from teenagers. Primary and secondary schools move in unison and homogenize education, burying geniuses. Confucius emphasized teaching students in accordance with their aptitude. Now some people say, don’t learn English. Without learning English, rural children will always be farmers. If you don’t learn English, how will you find a job in this world in the future? Others say, don’t study mathematics. If you are not good at math and English, you will not be able to enter high-end industries. The children of farmers will always be farmers, and class differentiation will appear. I understand that it is difficult to learn English in rural areas. But if you endure it for a while, you will get through it, right? Maybe my oral expression is not that good, but I can do it if I have the ability to recognize words.
Teachers’ remuneration should be improved. Why do we have to engage in large class education? By dividing each class into small classes of 20 people, the teaching team can be doubled or tripled. Some people say that teachers cannot create value, but teachers can create the future. In 20 to 30 years, China will become stronger and will have to find a way out. It will be easier to differentiate the education of its children. If more talented children emerge, value will be created.
Therefore, I believe that the first thing to do well in education is differentiation; the second thing is that the country should use good schools as a platform and allow it to become a website to bring up the west. Now, our telecommunications have reached rural areas, but the Internet is not used. The network utilization rate in cities east of the Hu Huanyong Line is very high, including in rural areas. However, the network fiber utilization rate in the west is so low. If we need to increase the utilization rate and educate our children well, what harm will it do to our country?
Liu Yadong: To develop education, in addition to hardware construction, software must also be updated. For example, we should focus on cultivating students’ critical questioning abilities and awakening children’s interest and curiosity.
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Ren Zhengfei: Yes. If the Internet is free for primary and secondary schools, why is the computing power of artificial intelligence not free for college students? What college students do online now is actually mastering the methods. Isn’t this the purpose of cultivating people who will challenge the future for our country? How do you know he is not a genius in the future? Only by creating a more open environment for college students and making them more active can we cultivate more talents and eccentrics.
Liu Yadong: In addition to education, Mr. Ren has also always emphasized the importance of basic research and must learn from the United States in this regard. What should we learn from the United States?
Ren Zhengfei: We still need to learn from the advanced culture of the United States. We have never said “down with the United States.” Huawei is also doing some basic research. Basic research cannot be separated from basic education. Basic education is the responsibility of the country. Without good basic education, top talents cannot be cultivated.
In the future, we will have fewer opportunities to recruit talents from abroad. This will require China to cultivate its own talents, and then we must change teaching methods. Many prestigious Western schools do not have textbooks, such as the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The teacher comes up and writes a pass, another teacher comes up and writes a pass and addresses the previous criticisms, and then another teacher comes up and addresses the previous criticisms. After that, students will do their own homework. The teacher only needs to see that your thinking is correct, and no conclusion is required. The teacher himself has no conclusion. What conclusion do you want? We should learn from this education model.
Therefore, we should learn from the strengths of others and create national values. There is only one Steve Jobs in the world, so do we have Steve Jobs in China? There should be some, many smart children are very capable. The United States still has a lot of soil to attract talents, so China must also have this kind of soil to attract high-level talents.
Liu Yadong: Many scientific researches and frontier explorations are “lonely long-distance runs” and are highly uncertain. The work of these researchers is extremely important but often overlooked. How to solve this problem?
Ren Zhengfei: Our country must value those who cannot directly create value. People who cannot directly create value must also be allowed to live a decent life. Without a decent life, no one will do anything. All they can do is follow the United States. This country will never be able to lead the world.
Why does Wang Jinsong, President of Northwestern Polytechnical University, do a good job? The principals of their affiliated primary and secondary schools are even better than the principals of universities. The high school affiliated to NPU ranks among the top five in the country. Do you want your children to go to a good school? Then you come to teach at NPU! NPU has produced achievements, such as rockets, airplanes, etc. Excellent people are willing to stay there because all children have hope. NPU has such a characteristic. Its primary and secondary schools are among the top five in China, and their conditions are so good. Excellent teachers all want to work at NPU and also want to stay at NPU.
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Liu Yadong: Do you like reading? What books do you usually read?
Ren Zhengfei: Even though I’m studying, I don’t know much about it. If you understand a little bit about technical things, then ask and discuss with experts, you can learn a lot in the process.
The same person will have different results if he is trained or not. The teacher teaches a class and tells you the essence. You can also study by yourself, but it may take you dozens of days to understand what the teacher is saying. My regret is that I didn’t go to a prestigious university or get a PhD. I envy the kids who go to Tsinghua and Peking University. Sometimes I also listen to classes online. Wow, the Tsinghua teacher taught it so well! If I could have taken their classes when I was young, how much progress I would have made, but it’s a pity that I don’t have such an opportunity.
Therefore, I believe that talent training should implement a dual-track system. Everyone has the ability to learn on their own, but they also need to be well educated. Missing a class in science and engineering and going to class later is like “taking a plane”. Don’t we have videos now? You can watch videos and catch up on missed classes. Today’s educational methods are much better.
That’s why I proposed that the West should get a new audio-visual approach. As the quality of the Chinese people improves, there will be fewer police officers, administrative expenses will be reduced, and there will be more creative labor.
Therefore, talking about self-cultivation alone is one-sided, and “self-cultivation” and “other-cultivation” must be combined. “Tapai” is what Confucius said about “teaching students in accordance with their aptitude.” Don’t overemphasize the “starting line”, don’t homogenize, don’t let everyone stop learning English because I can’t learn English well.
Liu Yadong: Environment and soil are also extremely important for the growth of talents.
Ren Zhengfei: Of course the environment and soil are important. Individually, good birds choose trees to roost on. If the black soil in the Northeast is more suitable for growing tulips, then why do you have to plant them in the Gobi? Growing tulips in the Gobi is expensive. Many people go around and around, but they just can’t get out of the low cycle. If there is guidance from famous officials and guidance from noble people, wouldn’t he get out of this small cycle and enter the big cycle?
Editor in charge: Shang Shangwen Q